I'm still waiting for an answer

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I'm still waiting for an answer

Posted by S3C - March 16th, 2009

Why the double standard on this site?

-Flash artists are allowed to use unoriginal and ripped video game samples. Copyrighted sprites, icons, backgrounds, and music can be utilized in their flashes; I'm 99% positive they do not ask the companies for permission, and they generate money from (possibly through ad-revenue, sponsorships, and NG prize money) their submissions while audio artists are NOT allowed to use samples (from copyrighted movie clips, for example), despite the conditions of how they use the sample (splicing and what not), and in most people's cases, are NOT making money through their music.

To repeat the matter at hand in more eloquent matter here is a post by InGenius:

"To broaden what LJCoffee already said about Fair Use, that can only be used in terms of non-commercial, promotional, or non-profit usages, or when you are using mangled/glitched/chopped (ie., not looped) pieces of another artist's composition. Ie., using the drums from the Amen break for a drumkit MAY be Fair Use regardless of profit/non-profit end result, BUT using the loop itself is never Fair Use. Likewise, under a CC license, you are absolutely correct in the breakdown of the possible suits and countersuits, fines, etc. So it's generally not a good idea.............Except:

Many of the users of NG's audio portal don't particularly like the unfair use of Copywritten audio in Flash here at NG. There are SO many popular (and revenue/profit making) flashes with copywritten music in them, it strikes myself and others as odd that the AP is restricted to a CC license but Flash is not. The entire reason the AP was started was to provide Flash artists with music for their Flash, yet so many Front Page, Top 5, Weekly, etc. Flashes, and the vast majority of ad revenue (I hate MochiAds, btw) producing Flashes have copywritten (thus, illegal) music in them. Why the double standard? So I can see why many of the AP's artists blatantly ignore the CC rules for sampling, especially considering the fact that there are alot of us who have had our music used in a flash that made ad revenue, but we were not even given a Thank You many times, let alone an offer to share in the revenue. Share and share alike, indeed. There's an entire thread devoted to that happenstance with an artist, in fact."

Can anyone here give a legal justification as why Flash artists are allowed to bend the rules and audio artists are not?

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Mitrox 2009-03-17 03:43:16

well even if you don't respond.

In my opinion the AP rules are BS. Like you said, most of the artists on newgrounds ignore the AP rules and they really don't give a shit if their stuff has been chopped and screwed from other songs or even stolen.

Look at the bigger industries not newgrounds. For example, kanye west's unoriginal faggot ass. All he did was use the instrumental version of "Young Folks" and ruined the song by saying gay shit. [original, way better]

Kanye West - Young Folks
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgfb6cXxIaw">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgfb6c XxIaw</a>

Peter, Bjorn & John - Young Folks
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51V1VMkuyx0&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51V1VM kuyx0&feature=related</a>

Well I don't need to worry about that, I try making most of my sounds from scratch even if half of the time my music turns out shitty. [-_-]'

S3C 2009-03-17 03:43:16 (Updated 2009-03-17 06:25:03)

oh, sorry for not responding <3 i just intend my blog posts as a forum rather than a direct response to me, thus why I dont reply to every comment. although its rather hypocritical of me because I encourage ppl to respond to their comments because if someone takes the time to stop by your page, you should have the courtesy to hit them back...I do reply to all reviews though!

It's not as much as I disagree with AP submission rules its just that the rules are not applied justly to all content submitted on the site...

anyway, keep up the GOOD music

b[>_>]b
d[<_<]d
.d[^_^]b

Cyberdevil 2009-03-17 05:53:26

Nope, the world is unfair.

Though I wasn't too happy when my old Music Player series was deleted in a day due to musical copyright infirngement either, unfairness exists also in flash realm . . .

S3C 2009-03-17 05:53:26

Was that the one that Tom deleted and you PMed him because of it, and he replied "my bad" and said he was planning on implenting a backup system of sorts?

Cyberdevil 2009-03-18 14:32:27

Yepp, that one it was indeed. :/

Since I know there is a backup system, or one on it's way, I frequently ponder over if it has been implemented or not, though, tragically, an answer to my practically popping question may not come to see the light of day anyway.

I feel like writing much today, scribbles flow without decay, I say my words and visions portray, sway through depicted descriptions and positions in play, but unfortunately this flow I cannot use, since the world is square, unaviable and obtuse, and I must get back to the books that me pursue, thus I bid a temporary semipoetical farewell to you! Have a great day.

S3C 2009-03-18 14:32:27

To respond to a raddicle report from a rhymester (or not)
I am pressured to propogate a post through a poetic, passionate, and provocative, process
Thus I can not,
So I will not.

midimachine 2009-03-20 00:05:44

Truth is, there's NO legal justification for it and if flash authors aren't careful one of these days a record exec will come down hard on the entire community and fuck shit up for everyone.

The quoted text mentions flash authors using AP tracks in commercial projects without paying them in any way. This is also illegal since it clearly states in the CC license "Noncommercial: You may *not* use this work for commercial purposes *unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license*."

AP rage!

S3C 2009-03-20 00:05:44

AP rage indeed!

xKore 2009-03-20 06:03:20

ily

S3C 2009-03-20 06:03:20

omgztyc4vilyu2!!

midimachine 2009-03-20 23:24:06

Oh hey, more mixed messages in the AP, this time from the submission page:

"By uploading your own creations, you are providing an invaluable service to Flash authors worldwide. Your loops and music will enter the "NG public domain", meaning anyone is welcome to use your audio in their Flash creations free of charge."

Fucking hell. Yes, aspiring artists need good royalty free music but the authors who are getting paid aren't aspiring anymore. If your flash isn't free of charge then the music shouldn't be free of charge either.

S3C 2009-03-20 23:24:06

Well, I think with the ambiguity of the creative commons license allows the artist to set some of their own rules with their music. Flash artists are allowed to use music on NG free of charge, as long as they're not making commercial profits or getting sponsored by a company such as FreeWorldGroup, Armor Games, Candystand, CrazyMonkeyGames, etc. If the flash artists are making revenue, the audio artist is entitled to their comission. I could be wrong....but I think that's how the ball rolls. Too hard to say though, as many flash submissions evade paying AP artists like they legally should. NG should really make their licensing more clear.

As for not being aspired anymore if we aren't getting paid, I would have to respectfully disagree with you there. Personally, at my stage when I'm nowhere near reaching a pricetag quality I'm more interested in gaining exposure, rather than earning profit (even though if that money can be used to purchase more equipment for future musical endvearors - that's the area where I could see why AP artists need to get their share as well). Part of the fact is that 1. I'm still living at home, just like the majority of AP artists are, and have a stable income whereas some flash producers may be closer to being "starving artists" as indie developers don't make much and may have troubles in commissioning AP artists, 2. more often than not audio submissions are not specifically tailored to games, but chosen through browsing the portal, and 3. it usually takes significantly longer to develop a game than a music track or loop.

Also, if payments were an absolute necessity to audio artists, there is a likelihood that a lesser amount of music would be utilized within NG's database. It's more convient to pay one artist than divide the royalities across ten. So there would be even more usage of popular figures on the AP like ParagonX9 and less usage of the more "underground" musicians. And it's the exposure that's lost.

although, if AP music ends up being in a million dollar game, I sure as hell would want my cut ;)

FlamingFirebolt 2009-03-21 18:28:14

Because you shortened your artist name >: l
It's like calling me FF

S3C 2009-03-21 18:28:14

Final Fantasy?

Jenni-Harry4eva3 2009-03-21 22:03:58

Well.. I would love to know why there is such a double standard with in this... bipolar site called newgrounds. I can't even begin to fathom as to why.. WHY GOD!.. I mean Tom.

It would be nice to get some royalties here and there, but there has to be that factor of the revenue coming from the artist, who probably can't pay as much or evenly if he/she is using a set number of people from whom they used their tracks.. possibly killing his/her paycheck. Heh. But, that is just my little.. hypothesis, I suppose I will say.

I think what sucks is the clarity of these CC rules for the Audio Portal.. it kinda pisses me off. I didn't know my amen break was illegal >:( Lol. But to say the complete and whole truth, I wouldn't give a damn. Sampling is a part of the musical world. Musicians and producers every day use samples. (Although, that is a general statement, as there could also be people who make all of their sounds from scratch, of which I applaud them by doing so.)

It would be very nice if there would be a thank you from people who've used our music... freely. I MEAN FREE! COME ON PEOPLE! WE WORKED HARD FOR THIS CRAP! AT LEAST A THANK YOU. GAWD. >_> But anyway, at least I got out some of my hatred, or rather, dislike for this site. Quite a debateable issue... I prefer the neutral position, but as for this, I go against CC rules. FIX EM, NG! NAO >:(

~[IZK]

S3C 2009-03-21 22:03:58

Well, if anything, I wouldn't direct the blame on Tom, nor is it against anyone specifically. He was the one who mentioned the license was supposed to cover royalities/have artists set their own rules but it just never really came to fruition.

and by sampling, the rules prohibt usage of copyrighted samples. As long as you're not cutting that break from a song or pirating/downloading it illegal, you're in the green area.

midimachine 2009-03-22 05:21:42

The word "aspiring" to me means someone who wants to "make it" but isn't quite there yet. In terms of flash authors, I think the guys and gals who are making upwards of 5 or 6 grand per game before ad revenue *have* made it and therefore aren't aspiring anymore, in my opinion anyway. You're right, a game does take a lot longer to make compared to the music but a commercial game will make a lot more money. Friend of mine made a quick game in 2 weeks and the last I heard the top bid for said game was $4000 USD. Now, he doesn't always finish a game in 2 weeks and he won't always get that much money... But yeah I forgot what the point I was trying to make was. Oh well.

Oh yeah that's right! I would never ever expect a cut of their up-front payment which they've worked to the bone for. I'd just like a little bit of lunch money from the ad revenue, something like 2 or 3 cents of the dollar, just to say "thank you". I do wish there was an easier way to solve this issue. The last thing we need is more people high fiving and shooting sticky wads over how much they love PX9 while everyone else sits in the corner unnoticed.

Speaking of CCs: I think AP artists should be able to choose from a list of CC licenses. On other sites that allow this I tend to choose No-Derivatives since I don't like the thought of someone raping my music. Also, I'm a stinge ;)

I like these massive, verbose discussions :P

S3C 2009-03-22 05:21:42

ahh, sorry for misunderstanding you, I thought that's what you could have meant by aspiring :P

dang, that is quite a bit of money. Over the summer 3 of my trks were used in a sponsored game and the money I recieved was $400, there was also one other audio artist involved in the game, so, either the developer was feeling rather generous or got quite a sum of sponsership cash. Speaking of which, did you get any award money for your flash "You are Boring?"

anyways, fair points on your side. I don't think Ihave much to add other than were on a similar page.

and yeah, I like these type of discussions too :P

Steven-Polley 2009-03-22 11:47:22

Because legally, sampling doesn't fall under the Fair Use act. CC license fits perfectly for the audio portals purpose... to provide flash authors with loops and songs to use.

Now, I'm going to quote MindChamber on this one "This isn't an audio website, this is a flash website, and although there are plans to make changes to the AP, it is and always will be the smaller half of the site"

So.... yeah. Personally, I'm fine the CC license. You go to most other audio communities, and that's pretty much what they offer as well.

S3C 2009-03-22 11:47:22

Please reread my blog. I'm not arguing against the actual implications of the CC license but why the licensing is different between flash and audio. I have absolutely no problem with this not being an audio website, and it should continue to be that way. But it still doesn't answer why flash artists are allowed to use copyrighted samples (potentially for profit) and audio artists are not (potentially, but usually not for profit under most terms). Saying the flash portal is more important is not a valid answer.

Steven-Polley 2009-03-22 16:18:30

I understand entirely what you're talking about, but I guess I never really compiled my thoughts into a solid block of text, sorry;

The CC license was ideal for what the admins had in mind when creating the AP, with the fair use and share-alike terms.

What I honestly don't get is why it's such a big fuss? Generally, in the commercial domain, outside of the CC license, sampling is STILL frowned upon. Many artists will sample something, and somehow make it their own by running it through various DSP effects, and by the end of the day, it will pretty much be unrecognizable from the base sample.

If you're able to do that, even under the CC license, go right ahead. It's not doing any harm if nobody knows about it.

S3C 2009-03-22 16:18:30

If you know what I'm talking about then you see the fuss.

Depending on the purpose of the sampling, the artist may not want to make the sample entirely unrecognizable. Maybe they sample for the purpose of wanting a specific element of the sampled sound. Or maybe a quote from a movie. This is what I'm referring to- to make a redundantly redundant redundancy throughout my statements; this is disallowed while Flash artists are free to use samples from other media resources.

Jenni-Harry4eva3 2009-03-22 17:58:34

Well.. I don't necessarily place the blame on Tom, and Now I understand what you mean XD Ah.. that sampling lol. I almost misunderstood there. Thank you! That clarifies things. Thank the Lordy I'm in the green area then.

S3C 2009-03-22 17:58:34

just wipe your shoes when you come in ;)

midimachine 2009-03-22 22:06:50

Nope, didn't get any award money but it only got like daily second place or something... I don't think they were doing award moneys back then anyway :\

With sampling and particularly the amen break... how much chopping and slicing do you have to do before it becomes fair use? My track ">:C" has an amen in some form almost always during it's duration, I use it to create a bassline and other weird noises via the granulizer as well as the usual junglist/speedcore mangling... How fair is that usage?

In my opinion I don't think breakbeats should be covered by copyright law. To me it feels the same as having to owe royalties to Roland for using samples of TRx0x sounds :\

S3C 2009-03-22 22:06:50

oh, that sucks.:(

Honestly, I'm not sure if there's any fine line that is able to be drawn between what classifies as fair usage and doesnt. Most likely if you're throwing shit through a granulizer you can get an entirely different output from the derivative sound, and of course, there's really no reason why it could be considered illegal. Now chopping up a loop you can still hear to an extent the original source, but where's the point where someone can frankly say "this beat was taken from [X]" or considering the possibilities that it's just a consequence. All I can really point to here is the quote from InGenius where he says that using edited loops may be allowed but not just inserting the loop and having it repeat consecutively... I would assume the same reasoning could be applied with TRx0x samples and other keyboard, or standard midi presets. You can't copyright a basic sine wave, but once you reach a certain point you (obviously) can. As long as where on this topic of copyright infringements- entire compositions have their rights, but chord progressions do not.

I should probably look into it more.

InGenius 2009-03-25 23:00:54

Steven Polley seems to have overshot this one a bit. Yes, we (the artist sampling in this case) know that sampling is verboten pretty much everywhere. That's not at issue here. We're prepared to pay whatever price can be levied against us for using samples in a non-profit, promotional manner. But, we would like to know why the "fuss", as you put it, about our using samples when there are flash artists out there using completely illegal backing tracks to their Flash, then being paid via sponsorships or ad-sharing. If I can't sample, you damn sure shouldn't be totally ripping off that professional (and illegally downloaded, I'm betting) track in the back of your flash, Mr. Paid Flash Artist.

That's the point I'm making, along with many other inequalities that NG's ownership has never addressed to the public domain. Such as, you might ask? Video Game music, whether midi-ripped or not, is protected under copyright, so anytime you "remix" a VG track and put it on the VG part of the AP, you've broken CC license rules. But no one is cracking down on that because it would wipe out the entire VG section of the AP. This goes hand-in-hand with the blatant disregard for Flash movies/games breaking Copyright law when they receive monetary recompense with illegal sprites (also copywritten), music or other aspects of copywritten, trademarked, and registered imagery, sound, or written word.

Even using words like "Sonic", "Halo", or other registered trademarks of professional gaming companies in your description of your Flash could be a quick ticket to litigation should someone at those companies suddenly see dollar signs in their eyes. Yet it's the producers in the AP, where there is no sponsorship, no ad-sharing, no revenue at all being produced, which have time and again been told "No samples" and threatened with bans as soon as the AP mods get that ability. So that's what all of the fuss is about. Pay me, sponsor me, give me all of the opportunities and then turn a blind eye to my indiscretions like you do the Flash side of the site, or else be fair across the board and start moderating the entire site with the same hand. That's all I'm asking for and all most of the AP wants, quite frankly.

Peace

S3C 2009-03-25 23:00:54

Someone who gets the point! Then again, it was your point originally that I was just quoting after all. I don't have anything more to add then - you rock! Thanks!

I'm still waiting for an answer

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